Transcript of Winston Baker's STATE OF THE INDUSTRY; STATE OF FINANCE roundtable

Uri Singer

Initially, for me, this is an alarm because I go home every night, and that’s not the same as I feel with the cast. It’s very easy to cast if they have time in their schedule. They say, “No problem,” and that’s a big advantage. If you have a great room over there, especially now when not a lot of movies are being made in most places, it compensates rather than shooting elsewhere as well. There are actually separate considerations we have to go through, but the way I do movies is a bit different. I’m never dependent on pre-sales. It’s more about getting equity and just making the movie. So yes, it’s simple. Once you do that, you get what you need, you get the cast, and you make them comfortable and interested in your project. It’s a game, but I think I would recommend it to anybody. You should bring projects to LA or New York. It’s not the best tax haven, but for me, it works. So I recommend it.

Maxime Cottray

I’ll counter that. I think that sounds wonderful if you have the equity, but I think you have to be far more agnostic that way. I understand the cost differences, but crews are going to be faced with AI taking their jobs, so I think they’ll be a little more willing to go where the money is. At the end of the day, it’s about the money. And even if you have equity, why wouldn’t you want to de-risk with tax incentives and financing support?

Juliana Lubin

Just to add to it, if I may — sometimes when you start running the budget and you see how much travel costs and crew availability will cost depending on when you’re shooting, it actually makes more sense to shoot in New York, New Jersey, or maybe even LA. Also, when it comes to casting, a lot of top actresses prefer to stay close to their kids, and that’s really crucial for them. But they’ll be available if you shoot locally. We kind of try to make it work.

Paul Scanlan

I think at the end of the day, California needs a better tax credit if you want to keep the jobs in California. We’re in post-production on a movie we shot in LA, and I wish I could say we had a great experience there. We did have a great experience with the crew and the talent and everything, but I contrast that with the movie we shot in Oregon, and I’m just going to give a shout-out to Oregon because we had an absolutely amazing experience there.

We got a really generous tax credit, and we didn’t even have to finance it because the turnaround was so quick. That’s one of the things I think you have to factor in when looking at tax credits — how long it takes to actually get that tax money back and what hoops you have to jump through to get it. Make sure you’re asking those questions as well.

Kayla Bowman

Okay, well Juliana, when you think about the timing of the tax credit — some jurisdictions, like New York for example, can take a very long time to get that credit back. If everything else makes sense except for the timing, how do you deal with that problem? Is there a way to bridge that timing gap?

Paul Scanlan

Well, we had a movie that we shot in Louisiana, and in the time it took us to get the tax credit back from Louisiana, we developed, financed, produced, and received the tax credit on another movie before we even got the tax credit on the first Louisiana project. That was pretty eye-opening.

We had cash-flow financing set up if we needed it, but that’s costly. It’s another part of the budget you don’t see on screen. Interest doesn’t show up on screen, so you want to minimize how much interest you pay.

One of the things I agree with Harold and Maxime about is that equity is key, but it’s also the hardest money to raise. It’s incredibly hard to raise equity nowadays. If you’re asking one deep-pocketed investor to make a multimillion-dollar bet, that’s a hard thing to sell. Usually your pitch becomes about reducing the risk for that investor.

But when you have thousands of people making $100 or $1,000 investments, it’s a totally different scenario. They want you swinging for the fences. They’re not looking for a safe bet. They’re investing because it’s emotional and they want to be part of something.

That’s what Legion M does. We do have investors who put up millions of dollars and finance movies that way, but on the last couple of movies we shot, we had a few thousand people investing. The average investment was around $500, and many people put in just $100. And every time we ask them what kind of risk profile they want, they say: “Swing for the fences.” They’re not doing this just to get their money back. They want to have an impact and be part of something bold.

Maxime Cottray

What your investors might subconsciously be realizing is exactly what we talked about before — you need audience engagement for equity to work. The whole point is the risk. There used to be a middle zone where maybe you’d lose 20% or make 20%, and you could run that business model for 40 years. That doesn’t really exist anymore. The floor is zero. You can lose everything.

So if the downside is losing it all, people naturally want the upside to be massive too. That’s why you have to swing for the fences. It comes back to understanding how to reach audiences. We’re competing with sports, studio movies, and every other form of entertainment. Nobody wants to spend Friday night watching an average independent movie. You have to break through somehow.

It’s about understanding audiences and finding ways to create that standout performance potential.

Uri Singer

I don’t think investors today who invest equity into films are necessarily looking to make three times their money. Most investors in movies know the risks. The first big paragraph in every contract basically says you could lose everything.

Most of these investors have far more money than what they’re putting into the movie, and they come in not just to make money. They come in to support the art, or because they want the experience. They want to be on set, walk the red carpet at festivals, and dine with the stars.

Paul Scanlan

By the way, I agree that’s how it is today, but I don’t think that’s how it has to be forever. I truly believe this notion that “most movies lose money” is something we should all acknowledge because it’s the truth of the industry right now. But I think there’s a better way.

That’s really at the core of what we’re trying to figure out — how do we make sure that even in downside scenarios, at minimum, we get our money back so we can do it again? And then, of course, still have upside potential.

A big part of that is having a built-in audience, or finding projects that inherently have one. We’re doing Nimrod with Green Day. Green Day has a massive built-in audience. Not necessarily for film, but people will go watch a Green Day film.

Finding projects like that, or underserved audiences you can rally cost-effectively, is key. But another thing people don’t talk about enough is marketing. Producing a movie is expensive, but marketing can be even more expensive. Every movie is basically a nationwide product launch.

A lot of people say that if you want a theatrical release, you need at least $20 million in marketing just to get attention. That’s an enormous amount of money. And if every release means starting from zero again, spending another $20 million just to break even, that’s not sustainable.

These are all challenges we need to solve as an industry. We need more efficient ways to get people into theaters.

Uri Singer

I agree with you, just not about the $20 million. You can do it for less.

Paul Scanlan

Yeah, I agree. That’s just what people say. You definitely can do it for less.

Uri Singer

This part of the industry is changing. People aren’t using traditional methods regularly anymore because they’re using influencers and new marketing strategies. Nationwide releases for small horror movies are happening differently now. It’s a new way of marketing, and it’s becoming part of the budget.

Juliana Lubin

I agree. A great example is I Love Boosters, which Neon is releasing on May 22nd. If you pay attention to the campaign, they’re screening it at big universities for students, creating events around it, giving away free gas and things like that. They’re taking a completely new approach to marketing to the right audience. Everything is changing.

Uri Singer

And you mentioned TikTok. We had one cast member with a huge TikTok following whose fans genuinely felt like they were her friends. When we released the trailer, it got 70 million views, and 98% of the comments were people saying they wanted to see the movie and wanted more.

Paul Scanlan

It’s a phenomenon. If you can tap into it, it’s really incredible.

Kayla Bowman

There’s kind of a theme we’re hearing here, which is a transmedia approach — bringing together music, social media, TV, events, and releases. So Maxime, when you’re looking at a project, how much does that transmedia or event potential factor into your thinking?

Maxime Cottray

It goes back to what we said before — you’re competing with so many different things. How do you convince someone to go out and watch your movie?

Hollywood often approaches it backwards. We always ask: who is your audience, and how do you galvanize them? Maybe it’s Gen Z, and maybe their interactions are happening mostly on social media or through friend groups and online communities.

It’s a major part of how we think about projects because it’s the opposite of the traditional “make it and see what happens” approach.

When we evaluate a movie, we actually start by thinking about the trailer and the audience reaction before the movie is even made. It’s about thinking of the end result at the very beginning. It makes the process more complicated, but ideally it leads to a more predictable and successful outcome.

Kayla Bowman

On distribution strategy — streaming is obviously a huge factor in how projects get released now. Juliana, how has streamer strategy changed over the past few years? Is there still a viable large-scale streamer strategy?

Juliana Lubin

From our experience — and I’ve worked in distribution for many years — we’ve had success both with streamers and independent distribution. But overall, buyers and platforms have become much more conservative.

Maxime Cottray

A lot of filmmakers still make projects hoping streamers will buy them afterward, but that’s becoming a risky strategy. Streamers change direction constantly based on algorithms and market trends.

The smarter approach is working directly with them early on — asking what’s working for them and shaping projects around that demand. That’s not always possible for everyone, but it’s a major part of how we operate. We’re constantly talking with Hulu, Netflix, and others to understand what they’re looking for instead of just making something and hoping they buy it later.

Uri Singer

Or you bring them in directly from the start. I brought a book to Netflix, they loved it, I brought the director in afterward, and it became a $145 million movie they made.

It’s not easy to get into those rooms, but if you have strong IP, a good script, and access to actors and directors, that’s the best path. Netflix changed everything. The whole business model changed with streaming, and now everyone has to adapt.

Kayla Bowman

How do you think about balancing the artistic side with the commercial viability of a project? Where’s the line between the two?

Uri Singer

The current state of the industry is frustrating. It used to be easier because people took more chances. Now everything is much more commercialized.

But I still think there’s room for quality films if you can find the right talent — directors and cast who are passionate about the material. It’s not always easy, but good projects can still find a home.

Kayla Bowman

Paul, from your side, since your financing model is different, is there more appetite for arthouse, genre, or niche projects?

Paul Scanlan

Within our community, absolutely. We’re guided by what our audience wants, and while we obviously care about commercial success, we also care deeply about originality.

Film is art, but unlike traditional art, we need a lot of people to like it for it to succeed financially. So yes, it makes sense to think about audiences while still taking creative risks.

One thing our community really wants is originality. They’re tired of endless franchise reboots. That’s what we’re fighting against. Big studios are often driven by Wall Street and existing franchises because minimizing risk becomes the priority.

We’re involved with projects that traditional Hollywood might overlook. Some movies that tested well and had talented people involved were literally being shelved for tax write-offs. That’s not respecting the art form.

Our community wants bold, wildly original projects. And I believe there’s a real audience for them. As our platform grows, we’re seeing that even without spending millions on marketing, we can create measurable box office impact simply because we have a built-in audience.

That’s a game changer. And it’s not just about one company doing this. If more companies built communities around audiences, it could fundamentally change the industry.

Kayla Bowman

It’s hard to sit up here and not talk about AI — not just the threats, but the opportunities. What can AI do today that wasn’t possible before, creatively or financially?

Maxime Cottray

I’ll start. I actually see AI pretty positively overall. The first obvious impact is cost reduction. Not just visual effects and post-production, but filming techniques and workflows that can reduce shooting days and production costs.

And honestly, I don’t think lower budgets are bad for filmmaking. Over the last 20 years, a lot of media companies have focused heavily on cost-cutting anyway. AI could allow filmmakers to attempt things they previously couldn’t afford.

Years ago, you’d read a script with scenes in Iceland or huge locations and immediately think, “We can’t afford this.” Now, maybe you can. So while cost-cutting is the first phase, creatively it can also open doors rather than limit them.

Juliana Lubin

Coming from a creative background, I think AI can be very positive. Instead of telling a director, “Sorry, we don’t have the budget for that,” now maybe you can actually give them those locations or visual possibilities without moving the entire crew. It opens so many doors creatively.

Maxime Cottray

Exactly. To Uri’s point, we can shoot almost anywhere now.

Paul Scanlan

I agree with a lot of that, though personally I kind of wish it weren’t happening. I’ve always been an early adopter of technology and generally optimistic about it, but I’d be lying if I said AI doesn’t make me nervous.

I love how human art is. I love the collaboration and emotional connection involved in filmmaking. I think we’ll always have that, though. I see AI more as a force multiplier.

One thing I think AI will definitely do is massively increase supply. There will simply be more content. But right now, demand doesn’t really scale alongside supply in our industry. Movies just keep getting made regardless of market demand.

What we need is more “parking lots” — more distributors, buyers, and pathways for projects to actually find audiences. Right now there are only so many acquisition buyers, and their capacity is limited. We need more people helping films connect with viewers.

Juliana Lubin

Just to add — the box office in North America actually went up 23% from last year. Gen Z audiences are going to theaters. They want stories, and they want experiences.

Paul Scanlan

Absolutely. I was talking more about acquisition demand from buyers, not audience demand. I completely agree that audiences are still there. That’s exactly why we need more pathways for films to reach them.

Juliana Lubin

Exactly. Films still matter. Stories still matter. We’re all still trying to figure out how to make the business thrive, but audiences are there.

Uri Singer

Let me tell you my take on AI. About 16 years ago I made a movie called Marjorie Prime. It was about an 84-year-old woman whose husband appeared to her as a hologram built from her memories. At the time, it felt far-fetched.

But if you watch it now, it feels very current. In the film, the holograms eventually try to become human, but they can’t.

That human element is still incredibly important. Yes, AI can help creatively and technologically, and younger generations use it naturally, but I don’t think it can truly replace human emotions and ideas anytime soon.

Kayla Bowman

At the end of the day, storytelling is one of the things that makes us most human. It’s hopeful to hear AI framed as a tool that can enhance storytelling rather than replace it.

As we wrap up, I’d love for everyone to share one piece of advice — something you wish you knew when you started.

Uri Singer

Don’t lose your passion. This is a very hard industry, and it changes all the time. You just have to stay passionate about making movies and believe in what you’re doing.

Juliana Lubin

Change creates opportunities. Be active, adaptable, and proactive.

Paul Scanlan

Find your community. Find the audience you’re trying to reach and start talking to them early. They might help you shape the project, finance it, or make it happen.

I really believe communities are underutilized in filmmaking. If your project has purpose or impact, that’s even more powerful. Community can carry a project from development all the way through release.

Maxime Cottray

My advice would actually be to listen to Paul because it’s uplifting. Things are hard right now, but there are opportunities too. We happen to be in the middle of a major transition. As long as you’re adaptable and not locked into outdated models, you’ll survive and grow with the changes.

Paul Scanlan

One last positive thought about AI: if we’re optimistic about it, AI could become a barrier breaker. It could lower the cost of storytelling enough that entirely new voices get opportunities they never would have had before.

You may not need the same access, connections, or financing structures anymore to tell a story. That means we could hear from incredible new filmmakers who otherwise never would have had the chance. And that’s something worth being excited about.

Kayla Bowman

That’s a great place to end. Thank you all so much for coming, and have a great day.